Building and training sales teams is a challenge that most businesses face and fail at establishing. Sales Managers and Sales Directors are often training teams to execute strategies and tasks that straight-up do not work. The traditional sales process is dead, and the ability to adapt and change is critical. According to Justin Michael and Tommy Hughes’ book, Tech-Powered Sales, “SDR teams fail 80% of the time, and the sales industry is the only industry that this failure rate is considered acceptable.”
In today’s episode of Down The Rabbit Hole, your host, Rob Turley, Co-Founder & Co-CEO at White Rabbit Intel, delves deep into the mind of Fred Copestake who has trained quite literally tens of thousands of salespeople and hundreds of sales teams.
Fred and Rob talk about the mistakes that sales organizations make, constantly, and the damage that it causes. They talk about what needs to be done to repair this tragedy of a situation. The failure rate of sales teams and coaching programs is borderline pathetic, and the willingness/awareness of the change within the sales industry is far from understood by the majority within it.
Airs this Thursday, 06-10-2021 @10:00-11:00 AM EST
Trust, win-win focus, interdependence, transparency, comfort with change, future-oriented.
Selling as if it were 1985 is not only out-of-date but straight-up, ineffective. People don’t buy the way they used to. Empathy is everything, and mutual benefit is the way.
You may have heard of IQ, EQ, or TQ, but PQ is one of the largest drivers for establishing a successful sales or partnership relationship. Remember this: Companies don’t partner, people do.
Fred Copestake is the Founder of Brindis, a sales training consultancy. Over the last 22 years, he has traveled around the world 14 times visiting 36 countries, and worked with over 10,000 salespeople. He has taken aspects that make a significant impact on modern selling and put them into his book Selling Through Partnering Skills. The ideas within form the basis of Fred’s work with sales professionals who are involved in complex B2B sales—to develop their approach and ensure that it is up-to-date, and has maximum impact.
So Fred, great to have you. Hello everybody. I'm your host, Rob Turley of down the rabbit hole podcast, where are going to delve deep into the mind of a man named Fred cut. That sounds so generic. Doesn't it? But Fred Copestake is an awesome individual. He's got a lot of opinions and probably pisses a lot of people off, but he's got a damn good reason to do so because this man knows what he's talking about. Today we're going to be talking about a few different things and that would include, speaker Speaker 3 · 00:37 Mm sarcastically. speaker Speaker 2 · 00:41 Kind of bagging on the sales industry. But, really it's going to be challenges of modern selling, busy, old world muddled mindset. That's what you told me. And that's what I'm saying. I would like you to introduce yourself and talk more about what that means to you. speaker Speaker 3 · 00:57 Sure. Yeah. It's Fred Copestake, you've got the pronunciation, correct? Which always disappointed correctly. Yeah. Well, it's far more fun when I'm a chopstick or cupcake or soap flake or something like that. speaker Speaker 2 · 01:11 You got here, you. speaker Speaker 3 · 01:13 Got God now you've got it back on. I'm founder, Brenda's a sales training company based here in the UK. I mean really over the last 22 years, I've been around the world 14 times, worked in 36 countries, probably trained now over 10,000 salespeople. It's by doing that and having that exposure to that number of people and that number of different types of sale and sales process, that I thought, well, let me pull together the stuff that really works now, because people are doing a lot of kind of old fashioned things. I put those into my book selling through partnering skills. Let's say captures what I believe is the way that people need to operate today. How we can collaborate more collaboration is where sales is at the moment. That's my opinion on it. speaker Speaker 3 · 02:00 It doesn't mean we throw away some of the old stuff, but we do keep some of the good stuff, some stuff we totally kick into touch hopeless. It's terribly barreling to even think about using it. Yeah, that's kinda how I operate now because I've seen those three sales challenges that you outlined. Sure. Sounds great. speaker Speaker 2 · 02:20 Those challenges that, have been outlined, which one would you say is the most impactful to destroying the process? speaker Speaker 3 · 02:28 I think it's difficult to pull them out. I mean, they do kind of interact come together. If it's, if I go through those in more detail, busy, you've seen it, I've seen it. People listening would have seen it. I'm probably experienced it. It's where we're running around doing lots and lots of hard work. I mean, it's really industrious, no surprise, then we're doing all this stuff, but the stuff we're doing, isn't effective, it's pointless. Because it's not working, we do more of it. Who got to turn up the pressure. speaker Speaker 2 · 02:57 Over again a million times. It works the next time that his definition of insanity and that's what every company is doing. Oh, shit, didn't work. What was the return? $0. All right, let's do it again, but a slightly differently this time, but the same thing, really. speaker Speaker 3 · 03:09 Exactly. I bet we get busier and busier. You just do more of it and you can laugh at it because it's insane. However, it's tiring, but it's also very stressful. I mean, yeah. Tiring waste from the rest of it's stressful on people. And then yeah. speaker Speaker 2 · 03:22 Imagine living every day of your life, Fred doing something that will not work. speaker Speaker 3 · 03:27 I mean, okay. Being told to do that and knowing it's not going to work. I mean, in some ways, if you're in blissful ignorance, that's not so bad, but if you can't know that actually what we're going to do, ain't going to work busy, but I've got to be busy. I've got to run around and down a rabbit hole, I'm not the mad Hatter, go, oh, well, it's so much stuff to do. I will just calm down, slow down. The reason I want to go through all three is because it is linked to oldie worldy. Now oldie worldy is using old fashioned sales techniques. It's using stuff that just doesn't work anymore. Know there's stuff that probably was best practice. It made sense at the time, but now it's just ridiculous. You can fill. speaker Speaker 2 · 04:06 Multiple textbooks with shit that doesn't work anymore. speaker Speaker 3 · 04:09 It was great. It was brilliant. Actually even with a little tweak, it could still be pretty good, but you're doing lots of this stuff. You're really busy rushing around doing things, which is just old fashioned again, you can laugh at it, but then if you say, hang on a minute, we're stressing people. Actually we're probably doing quite a lot of damaged customer relationships. Yeah. Because the things we're doing and they'd just go, hang on here, just taking the Mickey here. You know, it's just stupid. I think that then all contributes to this model of mindset. However, the muddled mindset, I think sales leaders have got to take responsibility for. This is this thing where you say to salespeople, we're consultative salespeople. We sell solutions, Ballue customer value, outcomes, results, all the good stuff. We go, yes, that's what we do. speaker Speaker 3 · 04:55 Off we go and we spend the first part is doing all that. Excellent. We get to the 28th and it's like, right, stop all that, go out and sell all this crap. You can move totally transactionally because you're chasing this kind of opportunity, this target. The poor sales person, it's like, well, what I might do, I concentrate on solutions because that takes longer to sell and that's harder. I've got to meet more people or do I just bang the phones and discount stuff? And it's incredibly confusing for them. I used to think he was confusing for customers, but I'm not sure it is. I think they know what was going on. speaker Speaker 2 · 05:28 People are buying regularly in they're like, speaker Speaker 3 · 05:30 Did they do? I'm not gonna tell you're not gonna talk to you. Oh, 27th. Right. Let's start opening up lines of communication. Cause it's discount time. speaker Speaker 2 · 05:38 Did not only that just discounts. They know that, there's a push at that time and place because they're also selling things they understand. When you start pushing at them, they have an understanding, but it's not that great. There are ways around that. Buyer safety and buyer-centric selling is such an important thing. By jamming it down their throat at the end of the month, that is not centric. That is not something that is intended to help them. It's intended to help you. And it's to drive revenue. A lot of relationships will get destroyed in the process or people will feel like they're used, or people will feel like they're being forced. And no one wants to be forced. speaker Speaker 2 · 06:09 One of the most important things in any sale is to give them the opening, a big wide back door just to back out and them having the peace of mind lacking the pressure because they get enough of it already that they don't have to do this. That's when you really know that they are tied to the value and also try to push back the deadline instead of them saying, well, I'm not sure. It's like, okay, we'll push it back. You're not ready yet. Let's give it two months. If they fight for the earlier deadline, that's how you really know that they are committed because you just gave them an opportunity to just walk out or to push it back two months to get it out of their mindset. They want to do it in two weeks. speaker Speaker 2 · 06:45 They want to maybe even in a week, if they free up sooner. That's a great way to qualify and disqualify and keep yourself from chasing something that you're never going to get. speaker Speaker 3 · 06:55 W what you've just said a hundred percent agree with, but if you've got an oldie worldly mindset and you're listening to this, they will think that we're apparel lunatics. Well, you're trying to not get the deal. Now you're letting customers go away. You're not pushing, trying to get the business. Right. Right. Absolutely. You heard that correct. Is not what we're doing. We're not pushed to get business. It doesn't mean we don't want the business. It doesn't mean we probably wouldn't get it. Actually we probably will because of how we go about winning. speaker Speaker 2 · 07:21 It. People like that. I asked them this, do what the buyer's journey is? Oh, so isn't the buyer's journey. The journey that the potential client takes to buy from you. That's how you sell, you're, you're moving with the buyer's journey and you're selling them in a certain way to try to achieve that deal, to increase revenue. Well, it's called the buyers journey. It belongs to them. It should be at their terms. It should be at their comfort level. They should be driving the deal. Not you should be guiding them, not driving them. They drive the deal. They go wherever they like. They could say whatever they like, they could talk about whatever they like. You just guide them to the finish and you help them solve the problem along the way. That's that. People are not considering the buyer's journey. speaker Speaker 2 · 08:06 It's called that for a reason. If you're not following the buyer's journey, they feel forced. They feel pressured. They feel like they're making a bad decision because it's no longer their decision. speaker Speaker 3 · 08:17 See, I agree, but you're going to get pushback on this and that. I think salespeople should lead now, yoga and hang on Friday. You just like the folding world. Now let me explain lead from the point of view of servant leader is more of a guide. Someone who's there to help because actually it could be, I'm going to follow the buyer's journey. Problem is by doesn't know what their journey is. Why has never bought this before? He's probably the only time they're ever going to buy this stuff. They don't know how to, I'm more expert in this purchase. Actually my job is to take them, as you say, safely through, this is typically what we're going to have to do. Yup. speaker Speaker 2 · 08:57 What to do next is so important. Cause they don't know what to do next, but at the same time, it's about establishing that comfort and asking permission, the whole. speaker Speaker 3 · 09:06 Agreed. I totally agree. I'm not as collaborative, ? And it's not doing the stupid stuff like we'll team up. Let's pretend that procurement, aren't going to get involved in this. They are Rob procurement, probably go gamble of this. Do you know who they are? No. Right. We need to find out in your company who. Yeah. We're going to have to go to them and we're going to have to explain the stuff they want. Do what they will want? No. Well, I will tell you probably what they want because normally when I'm dealing with sort like, you they'll want this stuff totally different now than you forget it. Fred's got my back here for, it's helping me. I'm helping myself course because I'll get the sale. You're thinking this guy knows what he's on with. He's forcing me, he's guiding me. He's helping me. speaker Speaker 3 · 09:44 You know, we're not doing that stupid. You know, so yeah. I think we finally agreeing actually. speaker Speaker 2 · 09:50 Potential new client coach you. So that's a good way to approach. I would like to coach you on our product to make sure that you are kept protected and safe. Of course. Yep. Like, if the whole thing goes tits up and you're talking about us, they don't want it then guess what? You can just blame it all on me. That's it. I'll take all the heat and it's fine. You look like the hero coming out on top because you're not the one who's who created the problem. I'll take all the hit on it. Tell me, I'll tell you what I will coach you on how to pitch this to your boss. So let's go over that conversation. speaker Speaker 2 · 10:19 I would love you to coach me to talk about your boss and procurement so that you can coach me on what kind of people they are and how I should be speaking to them. So, we can coach one another to make sure this happens the right way. You can thank Marcus Kalki for training that one. speaker Speaker 3 · 10:35 Yeah. It's a dependence. Marcus is all over the biosafety and we both know really well and other listened to about this. So w what I do, and I, when I talk about collaboration is it's easy to stay actually. Oh, it'd be more collaborative. Yes. Collaborative think that's the way. Oh. speaker Speaker 2 · 10:50 Yeah. Being more collaborative and collaborating are two very different things. speaker Speaker 3 · 10:55 Th they are. I think one's the mindset that you've got to instill in yourself to be, this is how I operate. It is my ethos is what guides me. It's what drives me, how I do things. Collaborating all the things that we say and do, and to give them point and the stuff I use to try to get the mindset right. Will help people get their mindset, right. A thing called partnering intelligence, partnering skills. So PQ. Now I know two weeks ago you had Justin on didn't you with TQ. speaker Speaker 2 · 11:24 I got a 1 65 baby. Perfect store, super genius. You've. speaker Speaker 3 · 11:28 Got good. TK. What about your PQ? I'll give you a little test to take afterwards and that'll sell Foldit thing, but basically what PQ partnering skills measures all the skills that somebody who's good at partnering will have. I believe every salesperson, whatever you're selling needs these, because this is, you got an ethos. It's not just that you are in channel that you're a partner manager, and God knows these guys need a lot of it. It could be, even if you're selling a, used car, if your ethos is that a partnership, you're not going into partnership with that customer. If you use these things, the way you operate will better. A guy called Steve, Dan did research on this stuff. I have not made it up. He did it back in the late eighties, early nineties. speaker Speaker 3 · 12:10 When the big organizations are doing these kinds of alliances and stuff, imagine the airlines coming together and they'll say, I want to do it more effectively. So, they got him through the research to find out how can we as organizations be more Alliance, deliberate else. Hey, cut. Long story short. We kicked back after all his work is that organizations don't partner. People do. Whoa. speaker Speaker 2 · 12:34 That's like the greatest realization in sales history in forever know it was forever ago, but holy shit, people buy from people they like trust and can relate to no two accounts do business to two buildings. Don't just rub up against. Alright, cool. Let's go for it. And, no one's involved. speaker Speaker 3 · 12:54 It is cool that it, like two times four was did together to know these people do a lot of the. This is amazing. Okay. Well, how would we do that? I said, well, okay, I've looked at the scales. I've codafide them. And then you've got off. And then three universities they validated verified. That this is like a, gone through the due diligence if you like, and the six elements to it. When you think about it, just think about it from any sales point of view, first thing trust. Right. Okay. Do we even need to discuss that? Of course you need to just, you've just said it core before. speaker Speaker 2 · 13:27 They even allow you to start building. speaker Speaker 3 · 13:30 Okay. I should have explained, I'm just going to take you through the six elements. They are interrelated. I can only speak through the sequentially, but so I just go through and I always start when I'm talking about this, as trust as being one of the elements, the ways to build it whole, where we can have several podcasts on this. That's one of the easy, that's one of the elements of partner skills. Another one is a win-win focus. Wow. speaker Speaker 2 · 13:59 Negotiation means no parties win. Actually that's a fallacy. A good negotiation means that both parties win. Sure. There may be some sacrifice, but it's not sacrifice. It's just taking risk. Sacrifice is bad because you lose something without any potential gain. Risk is good because you're taking a risk to get more potential gain. So it's about that. Win-win and there can be a win-win scenario, even if you're partnering with competitors, speaker Speaker 3 · 14:25 Costco, and it's about the focus. It's about having the conversation to try to establish that mutual benefit and the way you have the conversation, defining it, understanding our expectations, what it looks like again, if you're doing that as a salesperson and by the way, a lot of salespeople forget that own win. Cause they give everything away and it's like, oh, that's great. What a good tale? Well, it isn't because you didn't make any money on it. Customers are happy that they are. They're going to be happy in a year's time. When you say you don't wanna deal with him anymore. So when you really gotta be clear on that, so we've got trust, we've got win-win interdependence. That's what you were talking about earlier. speaker Speaker 3 · 14:59 W your success is going to contribute to my success and vice versa, what actually my T oh, this the faint in you, but it's the application of it, ? But also I like to say, listen to, well, my success, I need my team to be successful. My backup, my business has got to be supported me, your success, your business. We've really got, bring this stuff together. As we're getting into bigger and more complex and more enterprise type sales, because it makes sense. speaker Speaker 2 · 15:26 Yes. And it's all about the logistics too. I mean, even, I'm not even talking about logistics companies or warehouses or shipping companies, whatever, it's just that the logistics of the whole thing, company-wide, it needs to work. speaker Speaker 2 · 15:37 There needs to be an upfront contract built throughout the entire corporation that you're working with and how is it going to affect everything? So it's a game plan saying, okay, we're working with this division, but it's going to affect these people, those people, how do we need to cater to them as in a, as a result of the outcomes that we're getting, how's it going to affect them and how can they be serviced? Do we need to prepare for something else? Do I need to bring in a partner to service that area once it gets there and so on, because it can create other problems when you're fixing another one. speaker Speaker 3 · 16:07 Yeah. You don't get one of the tiny little cold, dry, and the whole thing isn't working. So, the independence, it gives us that great focus. Next thing that we look at is transparency. In dense, original model, he talks about self-disclosure and feedback. Transparency is shorter, but some self-disclosure, I'm going to give information about myself. I can't expect you to be a mind reader and know actually what a good deal looks like. I can't expect you to know that actually, we're getting close to that, and I'm not happy with this and the relationship isn't working. Yep. speaker Speaker 2 · 16:39 Management too. If you're not transparent with them, if there's an issue, tell them that there's an issue before they even figure it out. You should know first as the provider, before they do, unless it's some like bug or something like that. speaker Speaker 3 · 16:49 Yeah. W we've messed up, but we never messed up. So we're going to tell you this. We're not, again, we're not gonna pretend this stuff hasn't happened. That kind of giving that side, the self-disclosure piece, I think really important, but also the feedback, again, it takes two to tango that we talked about. Relationships is relationships. We can be, we could be doing this relationships podcast about, just your personal relationship, and you've got to get feedback. If somebody is not, if your customer isn't helping you help them, if they're not doing what their part of the deal was, if they're not kind of getting involved in the way we said we would, so we can get it's mutual benefit, we've got to feed back to them. We can't be the whole kind of whole, no, you can't sell to the customer. No, absolutely. speaker Speaker 3 · 17:30 Well equals we're pairs, similar stature and, we're grown ups. I'm the conversation about how we can do something really good here, but actually you're not doing your part as well, which you might not even realize it might not be deliberate. It's oh God, someday I'll help with all that. speaker Speaker 2 · 17:46 And, and not having the fear to bring up that they are not doing part. You need to speak freely. Sure. They can get upset, but would you rather have someone who's upset and then an optimized process? Or would you rather have someone who's happy? That's screwing up the entire damn thing? speaker Speaker 3 · 18:01 How upset are they going to be? If you don't tell them that they weren't doing something right. That has messed everything up that we could have. This could have been such a good deal, but when you didn't do this, that the it, why didn't you tell me that? Oh, cause it was a bit, it makes no sense. You know? not at all. What else are we got? So, w we're getting some pretty good things which are driving this selling ethos that I believe helps be more collaborative comfort with change X one. We are change agents. We are change agents. Okay. It's a salesperson. So. speaker Speaker 2 · 18:33 We've changed. I always hope that. speaker Speaker 3 · 18:37 Title change coming up, I think, but no, think about it. Status quo is our biggest competitor. Anyway, we are trying to gotcha. speaker Speaker 2 · 18:45 The only, the best sales that the top salespeople out there, all of them will kindly agree with one another. They may disagree and everything else, but they all agree on status quo is the greatest enemy. The greatest competitor. speaker Speaker 3 · 18:58 Yeah. Do nothing. So we are encouraging people to change. We've got to understand more about change. You know, we've got to experience it. We've got to know how to manage it ourselves, be comfort with ourselves to be able to talk. I don't know, with any kind of credibility about it to our customers know, recognizing a change, curves, people go through stuff at different speeds. They appreciate, they have different emotions. They will just do things in different ways now. So might be slower. They might be less receptive to change. The new might be, you might move initiate. You might love it. It's again, recognizing that and helping people through that process put you in a different position. Again, I think it just helps you in this collaborative mindset. speaker Speaker 2 · 19:36 I mean, and change management is such a growing field right now. I'm surprised it wasn't a field for longer, but it's kind of absurd. The larger the company, the less likely they are to change because there's so much red tape, but that's why they always fall behind. Or they have issues. They have to buy their innovation because they can't make a fucking decision it's that they can't make a decision. It's like, I saw this, I was at this keynote and I forget whose keynote it was. It's it was after my keynote that I gave. It was talking about change management, how that's an issue with decision-making within enterprises, where it was just all, it was a, what do they call those things where you hit the sides and it's like the ball slides up pinball thing. Yeah. speaker Speaker 2 · 20:16 It was like a pit and every little aspect of, it was a different part. Like, so procurement was one of them and then the bats at the bottom. If it goes through the whole that's ideal because it launches and then it keeps getting hit back up and hitting all the things bouncing around. It goes through to like, the sales division, then the marketing division, Martin division, doesn't like it. It goes back to sales and then, sales pushes it up further than them. It goes up to, procurement says yes. Then, it has to go to the operations and operations says, yes, but what does marketing say? But they said, no. Okay. Let's ask business development, bouncing all over the place. Finally it has to go through legal. Those are the bats of the bottom legals just popping it back up. Nope. Denied. speaker Speaker 2 · 20:54 It's just, it was the funniest thing I've seen, but it is so damn true. It is just chaos. It's utter chaos to make one simple decision. Why do the biggest innovators in the world? Someone like Elon Musk, someone like Steve jobs, why were they able to get so far and do so much? Because they were able to make decisions quickly, smart decisions quickly. It's not about all. Well, what about, this is what we're going to do? This is what we're going to do. If it's a mistake, learn from it, move on. Being able to pivot quickly, being able to move quickly, being able to make changes quickly is so key. Most people, when they get out of the entrepreneurial startup side of things and they start getting comfortable, all that goes out the window and that's when it all starts going downhill. speaker Speaker 2 · 21:39 That's when the customer falls by the wayside as just a forgotten piece of garbage, because all they care about is the shareholder value. They just care about how much money is flowing into the company and everything else that they valued, that they innovated for, that they believed in goes directly out the window. It's all because the people, part of the process has been forgotten. speaker Speaker 3 · 22:04 Yeah. Again, if you look at any kind of change management, so demo simple, the simplest thing I would talk about would be the Kubler-Ross change curve, but people start motion, change happens. You fail. Yeah. You've probably denied. Start with, oh, you will do that. You go through these, you deny it. Then you feel angry. Then you start to accept it. You start to actually feel good about it and adopt it. That's what happens. We all do it very similar to grief. Actually it goes through, we all go through these things. People emotions, right? Go into Cotter for me. That guys go to when it's talk about change again, it's all about people getting people side, mobilizing people, communicating with people, better change people again, it's we come back to that and we miss those points often. speaker Speaker 3 · 22:47 One of the parts of the change process together, these elements or PQ all come together. So we've got this last ones. Talk about future orientation. We know where we're headed. We've got a vision, we've got a goal. That shed is costing me. That's the future mutual benefit. And it's going to need some change. If we know what that is. We make our decisions based on that, they're all in their own. Well, you know that didn't used to work well, no, it didn't use to work because weren't trying to do this and be everything or many things that made it not work are now different. Let's look forward and make decisions based on that. Don't throw away all the past, but what is, where are we going? And let's keep thinking about that and let's get on with it. speaker Speaker 3 · 23:27 Those guys, all trying to get that. I want to be first to do it. speaker Speaker 2 · 23:31 From X to Y by when. It used to work is the saddest excuse in the book, the saddest, most pathetic, excuse it used to work well, if it used to work, how did you get it to the, where it no longer works. Did you not iterate or do anything or try to improve? Did you not try to improve a single damn thing that you were doing for the past two years? Like wake up? Where have you been? speaker Speaker 3 · 23:58 See, I doubt that about the pushback. Well, they go, is it used to work sadder than it didn't work before? speaker Speaker 2 · 24:06 Okay. Well that's just like, there was no bar of success. It didn't work before, but again, okay. That's your you're nuts. You're crazy. Face it. You should not be running a company. speaker Speaker 3 · 24:19 Yeah. It used to work. Okay. It doesn't now, or it didn't work in the past. Yes. We've got so many more things that will make that work. It's a, don't really valuable time trying to rank them in sadness. Right. speaker Speaker 2 · 24:35 Ranked in sadness. speaker Speaker 3 · 24:38 What did you get up to this evening? Oh, I did a sad bitch. Stupid stuff. People say by sadness. Somebody asked me on a podcast, at least we're just having a chat. I can deal with these ropes. Somebody asked me on a podcast the other day, because I could ask you for your three top tips in descended order. I'm like, I got a minute at this time. I'll just give you three tips in any old order, he keeps bothering me. So, oh, I did not. I remember I was getting too panicky about what was, I said, what was D said to get, how was I going to order these tips? I think they were just the sales if podcasts, speaker Speaker 2 · 25:27 They have a structure to it. It follows this every single time. It becomes so unnatural. It it's gross. It's, it's kind of grainy and nasty and dry cut and really kind of choppy. And it feels, artificial and synthetic. You just described my podcasts because it's a real human conversation. It's funny because these people create these, oh, here are the top five things that this person says that person says it's literally a cookie cutter, same thing over and over and over again. Do you watch the same episode of Seinfeld every single day, over and over again, like you, there's something wrong with you at that point. I mean, you need a change. You need the ability to adapt. You need the ability to learn something new. speaker Speaker 2 · 26:12 Just that idea alone, watching the same episode of Seinfeld every single day, again and again for a year, think about the businesses out there. That is a perfect euphemism of that. The same sales process and quota structure that doesn't work every single day over and over and over again. That's why their sales team's attrition rate is like 15 to 30%. That's why they shock on hire salespeople. Let's say 10 of them, six of them maybe stick around and then three of them actually stay, that's it, that's the expectation. We're just going to fire all these people anyway, may as well, them on waste all of our money on training and then not do any improvement process after they'd figured it out. They try to figure out why wasn't this working. speaker Speaker 3 · 26:54 There. There is, as you say, how many times do we define insanity on this podcast? speaker Speaker 2 · 27:00 I mean, but it's crazy. It really is crazy. I've got a question for you, is that, what is the greatest impact of some change that you would bring to a business while working with them? So just pick one thing and then kind of explain about it that you've seen impact just a simple change that has impacted a business more than anything you've ever seen. speaker Speaker 3 · 27:31 I could be future, I could be past already today and say, right, I've done some really funky stuff in the past. I've run an academy to help people sell better. I mean, we did some really good things with that. There's a good stories that probably shouldn't be broadcast. I mean, I I'm going to stay, but it definitely should be for a customer. No, probably about it. No, I mean, for me now, it really is about trying to open people's eyes to collaborative selling and the stuff that we've just been talking about and saying, look, it's all very well, this things that you're doing and actually some of them are good and that's the way I always position it is that, one hand we've got things that have gone on in the past in sales of which some have very good. Yeah. speaker Speaker 3 · 28:15 On the other hand, we've got this PQ. We need to bring them together. I think if I can open people's eyes to the fact that, collaboration, let's just not talk about it. Some people love talking about stuff and people love the concepts and they like shiny new things. Of course, when it comes to implementing it can be pretty tough. When we say right, there's that we're going to bring them together. This is how we bring them together. Actually look, when we start doing this things, don't worry, you'll recognize a lot of the things that you are doing now, but we're doing it with this mindset. We are, we're doing it for this reason because it fits with kind of this consistent approach to Be modern, right? We've done this before. Find that works. We've done this before. speaker Speaker 3 · 28:53 Find that work, do more of it. It's really good. We've done this before. Bennett. You can't carry on doing that. It makes no sense to do it. We've got to have to swap this out for a new way of working. It's not consistent. speaker Speaker 2 · 29:02 With the model better yet than that is that even the stuff that does work can always be improved on always perpetually important, but what, oh, I forgot what I was going to say before. When almost interrupted you. There is a, there was a very interesting piece about what you just said, but I'll probably remember in like three hours and be like, oh yeah, it was the thing. And then, oh wait a textbook. speaker Speaker 3 · 29:25 Actually no three hours obviously for three hours. So the top. speaker Speaker 2 · 29:28 Thing is that. So that implied change. Being able to have them come, are you saying, so being able to have them come to an accord with not only themselves, but with their business to accept the change process is the most impactful. speaker Speaker 3 · 29:43 It's that sales has changed. If we could get that established first sales has changed. People can get it intellectually, but actually that then means you have to change in. You need to do things differently than you see when you're doing that. And that you've always done. And the results aren't as good anymore. You now have to do something different. Why? Because of these changes were saying, I've tried. Well, I tried, I have packaged it in a way that will make it accessible and easy for you to get these first steps in place to start on that. If you want to go deep, if you want to start using some of the really funky stuff, then great. We've given a framework for you to start to think of, speaker Speaker 2 · 30:23 Right. One piece that at the beginning piece to this whole thing, the whole, like the Keystone to this, I think personally, is that the amount of benefit and improvement that would come from just one tiny thing, it would be that if you, the seller or the provider, I should say, if you, the provider make it all about the buyer, so you make it all about them, that's the mindset. If it goes both ways, they make it all about you. That's the mindset. You're already at an advantage in comparison to almost every single relationship that's out there when you make it all about them. They also make it all about you. You're already on the top from there. It's just, it's clockwork. speaker Speaker 3 · 31:09 Absolutely. Look the way. I'm the way I'm delivering training. Now it's changed because I can't get on a plane anymore. It's screwed up air miles badly. But, however, what it's is proposing this position where we're doing shorter things that we can get, people live there's information that they can take on board. They can go and apply. They can come back. We can coach. We can then add another bit in and we can take them on the journey. We stretch the training out. I used to spend loads of time on the playground because I was spending those top of the plane, right? We're going to do loads and loads of training because everyone else spent nights title. So we're going to do four days. Why to justify the travel. It's a lot of stuff to cover. speaker Speaker 3 · 31:43 Now we can do four days over three months, at a time, break it down. Yeah. What I'll do is the first thing we kind of bring your first session. First three hour session PQ. What's that about? Let's start thinking about stuff. We've just gone through. Let's get the mindset sorted. Let's think about how sales evolve. Let's still go through the, I do a little kind of history lesson, pick out the bits. We still want bend the bits. We don't think profiled the salesperson. That is what you guys are working on. That is where we're going on the rest of this journey next like three months. Okay. The next one, we come to the Validates the first part of the value price, like type people thrive. Okay. We'll do traditional qualification, ? Yeah. speaker Speaker 3 · 32:23 It's still got to make commercials that it's, you look and see if your solution fits. You still got to do those things. I ain't got a problem with that. speaker Speaker 2 · 32:30 Mine does that for you. You don't even have to think about that anymore, but, , speaker Speaker 3 · 32:33 I thought you might agree with this, but that's what I'm saying is, you can do your bank. You're mad at your bank. Your Scotsman have a set of Scrabble that as you want, actually, I'm not going to decry that they are still important where you power up. It is using stuff like you say, but even before we get to yours, I'll be saying, look, it takes two to tango. So let's start trying to psychologically qualify. Let's just think about, how are they to work with, because we're going to try and collaborate with them. We want to work more closely with them. You put them at the center of what we're doing. If they aren't going to accept that. If they don't do that, when they sell that a bunch of videos, if they're, whatever reason that we don't think we're going to net. speaker Speaker 3 · 33:12 Well, okay. So it looks some clues. Now, of course, if we want totally pallet up and blast straight through it, we call you don't wake. You say, well, I can actually prove that and say, and here is the person that you speak to certainty. speaker Speaker 2 · 33:26 Sales and automatic identification of opportunities that fit at a psychographic level. It's a beautiful thing. Oh, by the way, I meant to say real quick, all the Americans out there and the people who are listening and Latin countries or Israel, I just want to say that when he says plane, he's not talking about the thing that flies he's English. When he says plane, that means a sales team. Okay? speaker Speaker 3 · 33:47 No plane, that plane, speaker Speaker 2 · 33:52 Plane. And that plane you were talking about. Oh, because people refer to them in a UK that I work with all the time that Plains our sales teams. speaker Speaker 3 · 34:00 Like I got to point. Yeah. Oh no. I'll talk about play. No, and I'm not on a plane anymore. It means I'm not an aircraft. I'm not getting a little bag of pretzels or Judah tonics, south, speaker Speaker 2 · 34:12 England, that they refer to sales teams as planes. Some of them, speaker Speaker 3 · 34:17 Okay. No, no. I I'd say team or in Spain they keep up. speaker Speaker 2 · 34:25 I didn't mean to interrupt. We're going somewhere good on that back to you. speaker Speaker 3 · 34:29 No, sir. No. It is it's w we take it. We'll do. If you think about, I've done those guys, we go with the traditional stuff. We still need it, but let's take it. Let's pair it up. Let's advance ourselves as men, ourselves, and then really let's use the stuff that can take it even further. You know how people want. speaker Speaker 2 · 34:45 To take that? The comfort and the change too, because you're taking something that you're used to and then slowly manipulating it to get there. Instead of making that vast change, just like, boom, turn on the faucet. Let's see what happens. Let's hope that holds. speaker Speaker 3 · 34:59 Yeah. Moving up a level. I mean, let's cut. Let's cut. Crackle through the process if you want. So yeah. We go, so the a for align, right? You've got the homework. You guys rock up at somebody's office. You've got to go to talk to them. So you do better alignment. You do better with you start off. Nice and basic. Yeah. Where do we think we can add value? Yep. That's we'll start with that. Might well be wrong. We're going to have to go find that out because we're not wants to define customers, but we need to at least have a bit of an idea. Cool. Let's think about the people are going to be involved. Yep. It's more than two. Rarely. I know two. Yes. Well, it's going to be more than them. We know the are going up. speaker Speaker 3 · 35:38 Let's really start thinking about how we're going to map decision-making unit buying committee. speaker Speaker 2 · 35:42 Work that out average of 11 influencers involved in any enterprise level deal. It's going to be five to seven in the mid-market company. speaker Speaker 3 · 35:51 Yeah. I remember a couple years ago were talking about 5.6, which I always thought that it was 0.6 person. What is that? But yeah, the numbers have gone up. That's that guy. And he's really important. That'd be that one. But, no. We do that so we can take it. Let's think what value's gonna look like. Let's start doing homework. Let's think about the news. Again, if you want to take that really deep and how you map it and the information you get on them, more the better again, that's I guess where you can step in and go, we can help you get deeper. Fred, how deep you. speaker Speaker 2 · 36:25 Want to go, what do they call that process? speaker Speaker 3 · 36:29 In my way, I would train it. The first part is validate. The second part is align because align. speaker Speaker 2 · 36:36 The stuff, key stakeholders, decision makers, influencers, and all that, not just doing a unidirectional approach, what do they call it when you're reaching out to multiple people and having those conversations with different? speaker Speaker 3 · 36:49 I start off, I mean, I'd call it nappy the decision-making unit. Depending on talk to, I sometimes talk about bow ties and diamonds. I dunno. That's. speaker Speaker 2 · 37:00 An interesting way to put it. Oh, the term is multithreading. speaker Speaker 3 · 37:04 Okay. Yeah, yeah. So multithread all that stuff. The diamond dust, the diamond where we got Robbins you in the center boat, I under salesperson, after he comes through weeks, it makes me powerful. It's like be more of the orchestra conductor, get everyone talking to who we need to, but you can't do that if you don't know who they are, right. Yeah. We move into the leverage piece. The leverage is leveraging that information, leaving the info, that we've done our homework on to start to have decent conversations with people. Could you imagine a stage? We are to sell fashioned, what? We're not going to throw that out. We're not going to throw out. A lot of this good stuff about how you have good solid conversations with people though. It's the same, I, I don't know if it's sort a recorded bit. speaker Speaker 3 · 37:49 When I say to you, I've got to say, do you have to have friends that influence people makes a lot of sense, understanding what makes people tick, all that kind of stuff and being able to do it, face-to-face over a call over zoom, whatever. W we need to do that. We need to that really well, that will hopefully, and we're doing it all those different levels. Yeah. That there's multi threads to the point where we can start to build a proposal. Not quite, I get really excited when people talk about quotes, because that's just a part number, the price. speaker Speaker 2 · 38:22 When you, when you total your car, didn't do a car accident. They give you a quote and then it's never, right. speaker Speaker 3 · 38:27 Yeah. It's just never, right. It's a proposal. It's got information. Why should I buy from you? I mean, more and more. So, I mean, I used to be saying, you've got to give me a bloody good reason not to be writing a proposal. The only real reason I'd accept is that you don't really want the business. Now I'm coming stronger and stronger down the proposal has to have an implementation plan. If the implementation plan is gonna be any good is actually going to be looking more like a mutual action plan. Really we need to be starting to think. speaker Speaker 3 · 39:04 Again, certainly the more complex than we're enterprise sales, the ones we're talking about with more people involved, why would you not be putting one of those together? Because this massive chance to differentiate on the way you sell, because probably what you're selling is gonna be very similar to everyone else. If the experience of this person gets me, this person wants to help me. They've got my back. I feel safe back to that one. We'd want to be included in that stuff in it. If Tom Williams or Kevin Dixon or listen to this, they will get really excited. I didn't call it outcome enablement plan, which is fine. For me, same thing. I don't care what you call it, do it, do we want it? The customer feels comfortable with show them. These are the steps we're going to go through. speaker Speaker 3 · 39:53 A close is in there somewhere. It doesn't stop at that. We move on beyond that because it's actually helping you get those outcomes. And then the last part. It's about a process or it's a frame. I don't like process. I tend to have a framework because you can put whatever elements you want into a framework, a process. speaker Speaker 2 · 40:12 That you can just do and follow. Right. That's why I don't like calling it the sales process is the data entry, the CRM management and hygiene and all that stuff. Yeah. I like calling it a sales structure because there's wiggle there. You can move about the entire building. You just don't want to walk out of it. You want to keep them in there, but let them shop how they need to shop to figure out if they want to buy the property. speaker Speaker 3 · 40:31 Yeah. I, I tend to refer to frameworks. Yeah, similar kind of thing, because you are going backwards and forwards and you say, and some people might say, what? We don't need to go full on the mutual action plan. Yeah, I got it. Okay. That's fine. We won't put that bit in to the framework. This one. Yes. We're slotting in. It's pretty cool with companies and people who can then work out what goes into their, into that framework. It's a bit like a chocolate box, isn't it? And you got the little spaces and you can decide which bits you put in and fill it full of your favorite flavors. Right? Why wouldn't you put that in wine likes, it certainly gets thrown away. What can, let's not put it in there? Let's put a bit more of stuff that we do. speaker Speaker 3 · 41:06 Like, so that's kind of how it take people, pull through stuff. It's again, remember it started off with that collaborative mindset, because all the things that we're doing, whatever technique we can go down into all the techniques. If you've got 12 weeks, it's only 12 weeks, because little bit go away and do it go into it go and do it. In some ways it having said, it's not process. It's always, it is a process because we're going through it in this kind of sequential way that people can take a bit, apply it, put it into an enabling platform by our name or platform to be driving real sales through. The proof is in the pudding and that you are making sales while you're selling. Yeah. Sorry. While you're learning, it makes sense. You're making sense. Well, you'll sound like God, Fred. You're amazing. speaker Speaker 3 · 41:58 We're all going to sign up for making sales while you'll sell it. speaker Speaker 2 · 42:01 You're hired I'm example. I'm selling that's ultimate life. Cool. We're running out of time, but I would like touch one more subject before we go. What do you define as sales enablement? speaker Speaker 3 · 42:27 What do I define of sales enablement. speaker Speaker 2 · 42:30 Sales enablement to you is another way to put it. speaker Speaker 3 · 42:33 Yeah, I mean, for me, so I said it helps us sales person sell better. I don't want to get too complicated. I'm a simple person, if you are enabling me to sell that is sales enablement. If you can help me do better, if you gave me a bit of paper with some hints and tips on to talk about with a customer that really well, and I have not met her sales enablement, I love. speaker Speaker 2 · 43:00 How you went down. The simple, you're like, I'm a simple man and it's just, enabling sales people overthink it. They push it way too far and too complicated. If my definition is a pretty precise definition, because I'm a man of precision, it's kind of. speaker Speaker 3 · 43:14 What's in it. But it, speaker Speaker 2 · 43:16 What it is that you are giving the sales team, the tools and the resources that they need to do their job effectively and efficiently, but mostly effectively. And that's the point. speaker Speaker 3 · 43:34 Yeah, that's it? speaker Speaker 2 · 43:37 Oh yeah. No sales enablement. They have a sales enablement division. They have absolutely no budget for it. They have absolutely no plan. They're still doing the same shit they were doing before. Why is the sales enablement division in that company when they're not enabling shit, they're enabling a headache for everybody else because no, one's listening to them. speaker Speaker 3 · 43:53 I liked your definition simpler for me. Yes. I'll, I'll buy, I'll adopt that one. Happy with that. Yeah. Efficient and effective, more effective. I would always come down the side of activeness because efficient. Yeah, we can speed up doing the wrong thing, but it is about measuring the right things. Right. speaker Speaker 2 · 44:11 I would say this is how I put effectiveness and efficiency on the table to explain it to someone in really euphemized way, because that let's say the objective, you need to run one mile down the street, or someone's going to stab you in the face. That gives you a lot of incentive. Hell yeah. You're going to run a mile, but let's say you're really good at running. You can run on a, and if you ran a mile, you can run a mile and like 15 seconds, oh, not 15 seconds, but a less than a minute and 50 seconds, you are fast as all hell. The thing is, would you be on the treadmill? The treadmill is like some automation system that just is really efficient and they're using it and they're running on the treadmill and they've gone almost two miles yet. speaker Speaker 2 · 44:49 Guess what? They're 10 minute timeframes up after they went about four miles and they get stabbed in the face because sure. They ran four miles, but they didn't actually go anywhere. They ran four miles, but they haven't been displaced. The objective is to displace yourself one mile to the goal. The person who was just jogging slowly ends up winning, because guess what? They were jogging on the street. They made it to the objective. They displaced their body from this place to that place. So that's effectiveness. You effectively walked on the street to get to the objective. Meanwhile, the track star who's on the treadmill ran four miles with extreme efficiency. They're not even tired yet. They still got stabbed in the face because there was no effectiveness. There was simply only efficient. speaker Speaker 3 · 45:34 Yeah. We could take the analogy and kick the out of it further and go, do if were really clever, we'd be doing something to make sure you weren't even on that street where there are people that stop you in the face and we're putting you on a street where you can actually sit down and have a nice cold beer, watch the world go by and generally have a good crack right now. ? And again, we can go in and say, I can make you real faster. I can get it. Oh, I can do the latter. Well guess what your sales person is going to win. It's the travel agent salesperson. That's right. That's right. But yeah, it's helpful. speaker Speaker 3 · 46:11 It kind of, it can be, some really spangly stuff, but again, you can have this really spangly platform where things go in and it does things and it lights stuff up and it will all kind of, but actually if I don't use it well, it's worthless anyway. If I do use it, but actually that bit of paper where that vital piece of information was going to help me get this set anyway. Well, that's better. I'm not going to miss out on that just because I get so consumed with having all this spangly stuff that we kind of miss sometimes at the good, old, basic things are what's going to help us, enable us to make more sales. speaker Speaker 2 · 46:49 Yes. Yes. It's it's oh man. Do you want a disappointment? I have in the sales industry is absolutely kind of disheartening, but at the same time, it's why I'm here. That's why you're here. speaker Speaker 3 · 47:03 Got to fix it. Yeah. It's funny. It depends on the mood when I can't get really cynical, really kind of tired and really kind of, oh, what's the point, ? but then other times I get massively energized and go there's so much we can do. There are so many people that will accept the advice that helps would help, but that the ways in which they can improve and it's massively fulfilling when they do oh, speaker Speaker 2 · 47:27 Where I get, where I, who coachability is such a desired trait, where if you're not coachable, then you're not going to have a job. You're not going to make it that far. Because if you're just going only going to listen to yourself, then who that, okay. Have you ever talked to yourself to solve the problem that you didn't know the answer to? How well is that going to work? You have to look it up on the internet and talk to somebody, ask someone to help you. It's impossible. speaker Speaker 3 · 47:49 And, the one that really gets me is, and that's why I go back to those challenges. Now we start with busy. Cause it's the one that you see first where people, sometimes I tend not to work with people like this now because I've made that decision. In the past training hostages, and I've got a full story on training and they sat, there they go, oh, too busy for this. Right. They're not. speaker Speaker 2 · 48:13 Going to retain a single piece of that information. Yeah. Don't remember how much time. speaker Speaker 3 · 48:20 Management, the bits that I'm about to help you save so much time, but you're not going to do it. So you're not going to save time. I just think, oh yeah, these people being given stuff on a plate and I'm not accepting it, that really frustrates me because there are other people that say, we want training. We want stuff. We want to get better. People aren't giving them. So it's another reason why, unless. speaker Speaker 2 · 48:43 They decide to change. That is a fact, you can not change somebody. They change themselves. You can plant the seed for them to think of it, but it needs to be their idea, their initiative, their desire, their choice, ultimately like the old saying, you can lead a horse to water, speaker Speaker 3 · 48:57 You can't make it drink. Oh, dice so applicable in so many situations that we'll come across. The guys that do I say, it's a real pleasure. It's massively fulfilling and you see these guys flying. It's just. speaker Speaker 2 · 49:09 Absolutely. I've, I've had the opportunity to do the same for people as well. And it's a beautiful thing. When you see someone spread their wings and fly, they started out as a little chick. Didn't even have any feathers, just a little hairy looking little chubby thing, and then just cheap and cheap. It's just, they get to the point where they got their, they got the nice whistle and they fly away. Yeah. It's a beautiful thing. But anyway, we're good here, Fred. So, this is the end of the podcast. I know that was kind of abrupt, but, Fred, I want to thank you so much for coming. It was always a lot of fun speaking with you and I I'm looking forward to more with you because you're a fun guy. Who's got a lot of opinions that I really like to poke. It's fun. speaker Speaker 3 · 49:49 I was very well behaved because it was your podcast. Where do you come on? Mine, which already slipped off by the way, because it does have a four Wheeler. speaker Speaker 2 · 49:59 Yeah. It says, so anybody, so this is a little fun, little bonus thing too, I guess, lots of bonuses this episode, but this is part of my podcast signup. If you are uncomfortable with any of the following swearing, sarcasm or crude humor, tell us now, or forever hold your peace. So Rob knows what to avoid. This goes both ways. What comes around, goes around and then a Winky face. speaker Speaker 3 · 50:21 That that's fine. That's fine. It's just the formula totally. speaker Speaker 2 · 50:24 Full guarantee. Right? Because it's wrong. It doesn't matter. But most of the episodes are explicit. I think only two ever released were a clean. So, you know, what's the, speaker Speaker 3 · 50:32 No, it's not that I've got no problem with that. I'm a rugby plat mate. No, it's the, you said podcasts that have a set formula were boring and dusty, my days. speaker Speaker 2 · 50:41 Slept formula is that there's an opening with an introduction and an ending with a closeout and there's a subject there's a defined subject or subjects. Yeah. Right. So I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much for listening. Hope you have a fantastic evening. When this airs or now that you're listening to it, I hope you enjoyed it. Fred's very interesting guy, Fred, if there's a way to get in touch with you, what would be the best way? speaker Speaker 3 · 51:07 LinkedIn, like LinkedIn is always the banker connect with me on that mentioned the podcast. Yeah. You'd heard us chatting away about stuff as well as what is your website? so bring this B R I N D I S, which is Spanish for a toast as it. Cheers. And I was thrilled. Yeah, they can find me on that, but you can connect this link. I've got loads of websites. Cause I've got a book website and I'll add a website and there's somebody else website. The link tree on LinkedIn will take off, down a rabbit hole, so to speak. I love. speaker Speaker 2 · 51:36 Rabbit holes. This is down the rabbit hole right now, right? Yeah. Well, I guess I already said it. This is down the rabbit hole podcast. I'm your host, Rob Turley. And we had our special featured guests. Fred Copestake on the call today. Appreciate everybody listening. This was brought to you by white rabbit Intel. You can know more when more end close, often sales enablement, artificial intelligence that will help you kick ass. So yeah, it's a great thing. And thank you so much for listening. Have a good night. If you enjoyed this episode, follow down the rabbit hole podcast for new episodes weekly on Podbean, Spotify, apple podcasts, Google podcasts, Amazon music, Pandora and YouTube. If you'd like to apply to be featured on the podcast or recommend a featured guest, please feel free to email us at the team at white rabbit, intel.com.